Bell X Onsies

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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Eoin » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:13 pm

peepingtom wrote:Eoin 'the voice of reason' Madsen strikes again :)


I resent the suggestion that I'm a reasonable person. :P
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Nathalie » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:25 pm

Mully wrote:I thought Brian was kicked out of the band for his Pro-Bono leanings ...


Brian took a different direction because like an Apollo that he is (especially in that King of Spuds t-shirt), he's destined to be a music god! And I shall be his aphrodite when i cross his path. there.

and PT, i know cheap is attractive but we have to stop and think that way. you do have children working 10 hours a day on the other end of you son's babygrow thread. if it costs more money because the price includes a decent salary, decent working conditions and adults only workers, well, that what we have to pay then. would you like to be exploited by your boss? (and don't say you are because you're not.) and we cannot allow ourselves to exploit others. think different. recycled clothes from friends, buy slightly bigger so it's worn longer. and here's a good one. when it's tom's birthday. ask for clothes. not toys. believe me. plastic useless doesn't work half the time toys will take over your house in no time.
anyway. small tricks like that can make a difference in allowing you to buy "moral" clothes. and soon, we will all love each other. promise. :wink:
And by the time we stand on our own two feet, we're standing there alone.
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby peepingtom » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Nathalie wrote:
Mully wrote:I thought Brian was kicked out of the band for his Pro-Bono leanings ...


Brian took a different direction because like an Apollo that he is (especially in that King of Spuds t-shirt), he's destined to be a music god! And I shall be his aphrodite when i cross his path. there.

and PT, i know cheap is attractive but we have to stop and think that way. you do have children working 10 hours a day on the other end of you son's babygrow thread. if it costs more money because the price includes a decent salary, decent working conditions and adults only workers, well, that what we have to pay then. would you like to be exploited by your boss? (and don't say you are because you're not.) and we cannot allow ourselves to exploit others. think different. recycled clothes from friends, buy slightly bigger so it's worn longer. and here's a good one. when it's tom's birthday. ask for clothes. not toys. believe me. plastic useless doesn't work half the time toys will take over your house in no time.
anyway. small tricks like that can make a difference in allowing you to buy "moral" clothes. and soon, we will all love each other. promise. :wink:


For any one with reservations on child labour I'd like to stress that the children making these sort of clothes are very well trained and perform to the highest of standards!

Here's one for you then .... I bet you a pound to a penny that even though these items are bought from 'ethical sources' the person actually making these garments are paid less per item than the actual profit margin on each item for the end product.

Is that ethical, bearing in mind that the person making them actually has a skill, but the person selling the end product just takes them out of a box, and puts them in a stamped addressed envelope?

Not having a pop at merch here by any means honest.
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Mully » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:41 am

peepingtom wrote:Is that ethical, bearing in mind that the person making them actually has a skill, but the person selling the end product just takes them out of a box, and puts them in a stamped addressed envelope?

Not having a pop at merch here by any means honest.



That would be a simple chain of business, Skilled worker to Occupation ... The days of the farmer bringing his goods to market to sell himself are long gone.

Chef/Waiter.
Artist/Gallery owner.
Footballer/Agent.
Author/publisher.
"The band that is now the core of BELL X1 but at the time had a lead singer called Damien Rice - and what became of them all - sank into obscurity no doubt!" Dan Hegarty, 2FM 2006 (with tongue firmly in cheek)
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Nathalie » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

you can't compare the salary of one person in one country and the profit margin made here. yep, it might still be the margin that wins. but if the worker in his/her country has a salary in harmony with his/her country's costs of living, then it's kinda of grand. what you want to fight for is to have workers would, despite the fact that they work 10h per day, only earn enough money to buy themselves just about enough food. as for rest, they live in slums with no electricity or running water.

in all fairness, this is something we're facing too in the western world. how come some in Europe or America have to have two jobs now to meet month ends? we call them "travailleurs pauvres". "poor workers". they're that badly paid that despite the fact they work, they don't have enough money to pay for all the basic essential things they need. that's revolting. It even reached this stage in France where a friend of mine was better paid through the dole than if she had accepted a job as a translator. and nope, it isn't the dole that is extremely high. it was the job that was extremely badly paid. that's just fucked up.
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby peepingtom » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

yeah I understand the chain of business as it stands, but is it ethical?

I'd disagree about the farmer too .... plenty of farmers markets with very reasonably priced good quality fresh goods.
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby peepingtom » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:27 pm

Nathalie wrote:you can't compare the salary of one person in one country and the profit margin made here. yep, it might still be the margin that wins. but if the worker in his/her country has a salary in harmony with his/her country's costs of living, then it's kinda of grand. what you want to fight for is to have workers would, despite the fact that they work 10h per day, only earn enough money to buy themselves just about enough food. as for rest, they live in slums with no electricity or running water.

in all fairness, this is something we're facing too in the western world. how come some in Europe or America have to have two jobs now to meet month ends? we call them "travailleurs pauvres". "poor workers". they're that badly paid that despite the fact they work, they don't have enough money to pay for all the basic essential things they need. that's revolting. It even reached this stage in France where a friend of mine was better paid through the dole than if she had accepted a job as a translator. and nope, it isn't the dole that is extremely high. it was the job that was extremely badly paid. that's just fucked up.


yeah i know, I suppose I'm just pointing out that whilst we can all give ourselves a big pat on the back for buying ethical goods someone is still creaming the profits all the way down the line, and the poor fucker actually making it will still not get their proportionate share.

after i pointed out that tesco sells packs of 4 of these for €4.50 merchgirl brought up the ethical sourcing... well accordiong to their corporate website they claim to do this also http://www.tescoplc.com/plc/corporate_r ... l_trading/ .

The point im trying to make is that if I spent a couple of ours researching, I could sell these for a lot less that they are being sold for currently, and still make what I would call a fair profit for sending them in the post :)
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Mully » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:13 pm

peepingtom wrote:yeah I understand the chain of business as it stands, but is it ethical?

I'd disagree about the farmer too .... plenty of farmers markets with very reasonably priced good quality fresh goods.



No no no no no ... I'm not getting into a debate about morals or ethics. Thats a personal choice. I was focussing on the skilled vs non-skilled end of line person, hence my examples ... Should all waiters start questioning themselves because all they do is carry food, similar to a wheeled table ? (apolgies for any waiting staff reading ... )

Its like the Tipping argument from Reservoir Dogs .... Society says tip someone in a Cafe for serving you food, but don't tip someone in McDonalds for serving you food.
"The band that is now the core of BELL X1 but at the time had a lead singer called Damien Rice - and what became of them all - sank into obscurity no doubt!" Dan Hegarty, 2FM 2006 (with tongue firmly in cheek)
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby peepingtom » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:31 pm

dont get me started in tipping!!! :)
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Mully » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:16 pm

peepingtom wrote:dont get me started in tipping!!! :)


Concurrance is go.
"The band that is now the core of BELL X1 but at the time had a lead singer called Damien Rice - and what became of them all - sank into obscurity no doubt!" Dan Hegarty, 2FM 2006 (with tongue firmly in cheek)
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Eoin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:47 pm

Since an awesome debate is raging, I'm going to mix it up by throwing the value of intellectual property into the mix. :)

It's like CDs. The creators of the works inherent in a CD (the compositions, the recordings, the graphic design) don't actually do any work per unit of the item created or sold. All they do is take a huge "profit" margin. They didn't even design the format of the CD itself or the box, that's just based on standard form factors that the manufacturer is already capable of producing. But you have to allow for the fact that a lot of time and money went into the original creation, and that's what the markup is designed to recoup. Assuming it actually does so (most CDs don't), the profit made is essentially a return on the risk of investing money (and time) in the creation of the intellectual properties in the first place. So is it unfair for a manufacturer to get less than a euro per unit? I don't think so, if you look at the bigger picture.

The Bell X Onsie is just following the same model as all merchandised clothing. The item exists because of a brand or trademark of sorts which has been created at great cost. The markup goes into paying for not only the concept idea and design on the Bell X Onsie itself, but for the creation of the BellX1 image, which has taken many years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of euros.
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Mully » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:40 pm

Eoin wrote:Since an awesome debate is raging, I'm going to mix it up by throwing the value of intellectual property into the mix. :)

It's like CDs. The creators of the works inherent in a CD (the compositions, the recordings, the graphic design) don't actually do any work per unit of the item created or sold. All they do is take a huge "profit" margin. They didn't even design the format of the CD itself or the box, that's just based on standard form factors that the manufacturer is already capable of producing. But you have to allow for the fact that a lot of time and money went into the original creation, and that's what the markup is designed to recoup. Assuming it actually does so (most CDs don't), the profit made is essentially a return on the risk of investing money (and time) in the creation of the intellectual properties in the first place. So is it unfair for a manufacturer to get less than a euro per unit? I don't think so, if you look at the bigger picture.

The Bell X Onsie is just following the same model as all merchandised clothing. The item exists because of a brand or trademark of sorts which has been created at great cost. The markup goes into paying for not only the concept idea and design on the Bell X Onsie itself, but for the creation of the BellX1 image, which has taken many years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of euros.


That, & PT's just a tight Yorkshireman !
"The band that is now the core of BELL X1 but at the time had a lead singer called Damien Rice - and what became of them all - sank into obscurity no doubt!" Dan Hegarty, 2FM 2006 (with tongue firmly in cheek)
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby peepingtom » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:48 pm

Eoin wrote:Since an awesome debate is raging, I'm going to mix it up by throwing the value of intellectual property into the mix. :)

It's like CDs. The creators of the works inherent in a CD (the compositions, the recordings, the graphic design) don't actually do any work per unit of the item created or sold. All they do is take a huge "profit" margin. They didn't even design the format of the CD itself or the box, that's just based on standard form factors that the manufacturer is already capable of producing. But you have to allow for the fact that a lot of time and money went into the original creation, and that's what the markup is designed to recoup. Assuming it actually does so (most CDs don't), the profit made is essentially a return on the risk of investing money (and time) in the creation of the intellectual properties in the first place. So is it unfair for a manufacturer to get less than a euro per unit? I don't think so, if you look at the bigger picture.

The Bell X Onsie is just following the same model as all merchandised clothing. The item exists because of a brand or trademark of sorts which has been created at great cost. The markup goes into paying for not only the concept idea and design on the Bell X Onsie itself, but for the creation of the BellX1 image, which has taken many years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of euros.


Good point well made, however it is the price point and value for money that I have an issue with :)

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how much you invest into a product, if the product is not priced correctly you will never sell them.

P.S I will put up a video on youtube of me physically eating my own words when merch girl puts a sold out sign on the website :D
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby peepingtom » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:49 pm

Mully wrote:
Eoin wrote:Since an awesome debate is raging, I'm going to mix it up by throwing the value of intellectual property into the mix. :)

It's like CDs. The creators of the works inherent in a CD (the compositions, the recordings, the graphic design) don't actually do any work per unit of the item created or sold. All they do is take a huge "profit" margin. They didn't even design the format of the CD itself or the box, that's just based on standard form factors that the manufacturer is already capable of producing. But you have to allow for the fact that a lot of time and money went into the original creation, and that's what the markup is designed to recoup. Assuming it actually does so (most CDs don't), the profit made is essentially a return on the risk of investing money (and time) in the creation of the intellectual properties in the first place. So is it unfair for a manufacturer to get less than a euro per unit? I don't think so, if you look at the bigger picture.

The Bell X Onsie is just following the same model as all merchandised clothing. The item exists because of a brand or trademark of sorts which has been created at great cost. The markup goes into paying for not only the concept idea and design on the Bell X Onsie itself, but for the creation of the BellX1 image, which has taken many years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of euros.


That, & PT's just a tight Yorkshireman !


oy!
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Re: Bell X Onsies

Postby Mully » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:14 pm

peepingtom wrote:
Mully wrote: That, & PT's just a tight Yorkshireman !


oy!


:lol:
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